On-Demand Webinar: IoT Ideation - With creative methods to new IoT business models

Best practices and insights for a successful business plan

Overview of all other diva-e webinars

Best practices and insights for a successful business plan

Overview of all other diva-e webinars
What you will learn in the webinar

IoT and Industry 4.0 are among the most important success factors in the digital business landscape. One of the biggest challenges for companies is to find the right ideas and solutions for their business from the variety of data, technologies and possibilities. In this webinar, you will learn how hidden potential is discovered and new ideas are created in a two-day IoT Ideation Workshop.

Watch online now (German only):

The speakers

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Johannes Winter

UX Consultant, diva-e

Johannes Winter has been responsible for optimal user experiences and usability since 2018. His tools include design thinking, design sprints, usability tests and expert reviews.

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Ricardo Dunkel

Principal Platform Architect, diva-e

As a platform architect, Ricardo Dunkel is fascinated by everything that can be networked. The IIoT/ IoT area offers exciting challenges to apply his many years of knowledge in processes, systems and technologies in a targeted manner

Transcript of the webinar: IoT Ideation - Using creative methods to create new IoT business models

Angela Meyer: Welcome to our diva-e webinar: IoT Ideation - Using creative methods to create new business models. In this webinar you will learn how new ideas can emerge in a two-day IoT ideation workshop. My name is Angela Meyer and I am your moderator today. Johannes and Ricardo would like to say a few words to you.

Johannes Winter: Yes, welcome to everyone, I'm pleased that the number of participants, if I'm seeing this correctly, is still increasing, very cool. My name is Johannes Winter, I'm a User Experience Consultant at diva-e, and I co-founded the IoT Ideation Format and have been involved in it over the last few years. And I'm really looking forward to presenting it today.

Ricardo Dunkel: Yes, a warm welcome from my side too for your numerous attendance, my name is Ricardo Dunkel, I am a platform architect at diva-e and I co-founded the IoT Lab here at the company.

Angela Meyer: Very nice. Let's start the presentation now, Ricardo, I'll hand over the broadcasting rights to you, and then I hope the participants enjoy listening.

Ricardo Dunkel: Thank you very much, Angela. Let's just start with a short agenda, which should serve as an orientation. In the first part, we would like to briefly outline what we are doing in the IoT area and what the approach to our IoT idea looks like. We will then go into a little more detail about what this IoT Ideation Workshop actually is, where this creative method comes from and what it involves, before closing the circle at the end and presenting the process in a short timeline based on the workshop.

At diva-e, we have had various points of contact with the IoT environment for many years and have increasingly realized in the projects and in the evaluations of the projects that this is not a purely technical topic, but that we integrate many different areas and that we want and need to bring the departments together across diva-e and across locations. One reason for this is that we are talking about software, talking about hardware, talking about communication protocols, that we are operating in the Industry 4.0 environment with RAMI and everything else that is involved. In other words, the world is very diverse, and ultimately it's not just the world of bits and bytes that we're involved in and in which we know our way around, but it's increasingly important that we can support the customer in their projects from start to finish and simply satisfy them with our various services.

We have a very broad spectrum here, from strategy development to classic implementation and, of course, the commissioning of our solution, i.e. classic application management in the on-premise area or in the cloud, everything is included. From the idea at the beginning to the operation of the platform at the end. We have a significant Industry 4.0 focus, which means that we are less concerned with Alexa or what is known as the smart home area, but are also a member of various platforms that deal with Industry 4.0. We are close to the Industry 4.0 Association platform and are a member of the Open Industry Alliance, for example, where we are developing this standardization and the framework that we know and continue to develop in the Industry 4.0 platform. In other words, in working groups and with other partners or customers, we are simply trying to drive the standard forward and put it into practice. An important point here is that IoT plays a very close role in our data area. We have a close link with the data that is produced by machines, things, cars, whatever, to collect it, store it in data lakes and then carry out analyses on it, which in turn enable us to develop or evaluate business models together with our customers. And since this field, to mention it again, is very diverse and very broad, we then sat down with the IoX and IoE departments and considered how we could structure this approach better. And of course we went beyond the classic prototypes and proof of concept and MVP things and ended up in our ideation workshop. This means that we have developed a new format together, across departments and locations, which we now describe as the IoT Ideation Workshop, and where we would like to give you a little more insight into what this actually means.

Johannes Winter: Yes, Ricardo has already said that, of course, the technological component of IoT is often very much in the foreground and, associated with this, there is always the question of innovation or how we can actually get something off the ground with these new technological or perhaps not so new technological possibilities. And the IoT Ideation Format is basically the answer to this question, because we are convinced that innovation is no coincidence. That it's not something that someone comes up with quickly, but that it can also be accompanied by a process and that we consider this to be an absolutely recommendable approach.

I always like to explain the whole thing with an analogy, if we imagine that we have our daily business, which takes place on the surface, represented here by this beautiful field, where little plants thrive and that works quite well, everything grows nicely. At the same time, however, it can of course be the case, and in most cases in our experience, that companies still have a lot of hidden potential beneath this surface, beneath this everyday business. We would like to uncover this potential together with you and to do this it is of course first necessary to look at okay, what is slumbering under the surface, what opportunities or challenges do we have in our company that we are perhaps no longer aware of during our day-to-day business. And once we've identified something that we think is interesting, that we can somehow help people with, or that we can already see some business needs, then it's a matter of saying okay, we'll focus on it. We pick out one of these potentials, one of these hidden treasures beneath the surface, so to speak, and narrow down our area of inquiry to a certain extent. Go on Ricardo, please. Exactly. Because in the end, we need a task that we want to work on in the next step.

The Ideation Format is called the Ideation Format because a large part of it is the search for ideas. That is the next step in the process. And what is extremely important for this, perhaps some of you have already had something to do with design thinking, which is an important paradigm, is that ideas are generated without restrictions, because we often have this voice in our heads that says yes, it's a cool idea, but this and that speaks against it. And in this format we have also thought about how we can promote this even further, how we can promote new ideas, and how we can put this little voice in our heads, which we have probably all heard before, to one side for at least two days. And all of this should help us to bring these hidden potentials to the surface. And then, hopefully, launch cool new IoT projects. And now we'll get to exactly how this works and what framework conditions we need for this.

Ricardo Dunkel: When it comes to the framework conditions, we would simply like to share a few key aspects and a few lessons learned that have proven to be practicable and useful. We are always very keen to ensure that certain projects or project ideas are viewed from different perspectives. This means that we also have a lot of experience in projects that are purely technology-driven or purely self-driven and then reach their limits at some point in the project. This means that technology can't do what you actually want to do or that you can implement something technically that nobody wants in the end, to put it exaggeratedly. And that's why it's important to us that we integrate as many perspectives as possible at the beginning of this ideation workshop. Ideally, this should be cross-departmental, from development to sales to marketing or even accounting. These are all people in the company who have a different opinion on the topic and that is also important, these are not conflicts for us, but this is exactly the basis, the foundation with which we can simply achieve the best together. And ideally, we want to run the workshop in its entirety over two days, which means we want to focus on these two days and it's very inconvenient if someone has to make a phone call for half an hour every 60 minutes or can't afford the time to run the workshop in its entirety, because that ultimately leads to interruptions, changes of mind and, above all, interrupts the shared feeling of developing something over the two days.

At the end of the day, it's all about engaging in a joint dialog, i.e. within the department, within the customer areas and forgetting that there are departmental boundaries and hierarchies. Because that's the only way to create an open mindset in the first place, so to speak, to talk about this idea, to talk about problems and everything that's on your mind and what's on your mind, so it's definitely good if you, we always like to say, leave the etiquette outside. So at this point, we would also like to recommend not necessarily sending the boss in with five employees, because on the one hand it makes little sense, because they are from the same department and we have fewer perspectives and on the other hand we are all aware that our work is not a democratic process and in case of doubt, the boss's word definitely trumps the others. And that doesn't always have to be good, it doesn't mean that we doubt the competence or that we know our way around the domain better, it's simply about creating a basis for an open exchange. That is essential for this approach, otherwise it is difficult to leave prefabricated ideas at the door or even discover new potential.

And we would now like to briefly outline the essence of the workshop, which consists of two days, as already mentioned. The first is that we want to create a common target image in the first place, which will identify the challenges that everyone has in mind, that everyone immediately has in mind when it comes to the problem or the idea and says, it doesn't work, it works, it would be good, but but but but but. We start by collecting information, we try to understand each other, so that we can then ultimately collect and bundle all the information that will form the basis for day two, and here it's all about concretizing the whole thing, taking it further and ultimately visualizing and testing it. So that's a very important aspect for us, that you generate these approaches yourself, perhaps from day one overnight to day two, that you say, I have an opportunity to try it out a bit and I can also simply develop my problem, my idea further. That's the core of our ideation workshop, so to speak, and we'd like to give you an idea of what that feels like and what it involves in detail, at least in a small preview.

Johannes Winter: Yes, so as Ricardo has already said, it is of course essential that we get a common understanding of what should be processed in this format. There are very different possibilities in practice, so it can of course be a situation where there is already a certain direction, where you already know a little bit hey, at this point we might have to see if there is something slumbering under the surface, to stay with this image, or it can also be a situation in which we have a completely open space in which we move, where we say okay, let's just see what the different perspectives bring in and what potential we then come across. In other words, it always depends a bit on the use case, but in both cases or in all cases it is important to define okay, where do we want to go with the whole thing? And also what challenges there may be along the way and, most importantly, who are the people we need to address in order to achieve this goal. That is an extremely important part of this work and one that is unfortunately often forgotten. But ultimately, it's always about people and the needs of people, be they customers, employees or whatever, and that's why an essential part of the first day consists of creating personas or proto-personas.

Personas are archetypal users who are basically examples of representatives of user groups who have certain requirements, certain problems or wishes and needs, and the reason why Proto is at the forefront is simply because personas are based on field studies. And that is of course something that is extremely difficult to do within two days. Of course, it's great if there are already materials or something that you can fall back on. But we simply realized, okay, in practice we have to take a pragmatic approach and proto persona means that we create this persona on the basis of stakeholder assumptions. This means that all the people in the room work on this persona and can contribute their perspective.

This brings us to the next point, which deals with how we can make the connection between the needs and goals we have identified and what we actually want to do. And an extremely powerful tool for this is the so-called How might we question, which initially comes across as relatively simple. For example, if I now have this problem here, okay, recycling plastic waste is somehow too complicated, it's perceived as too complicated, then I stand in front of it and that's how it is for now. However, through a certain framing, as we call it in psychology, it is possible to reinterpret this problem or this challenge and open up the solution space and the How might we question is good for this. In other words, we formulate a question from this central challenge, an open question: how can we simplify the recycling of plastic waste in private households? It's not always so easy to formulate a how might we question well because, as you can perhaps already imagine, there are an extremely large number of ways to formulate it and you always have to pay a little attention to how exactly you formulate it in order to hit the problem precisely and, on the other hand, how you can still create this open solution space. And this question is then what we go out with on the first day, which is the basis for the second day, where we then get into brainstorming.

That's right, under the motto Create, we start by generating as many ideas as possible. This will also be familiar to some of you who have heard of design thinking. We have found that there is often a certain shyness about the blank sheet of paper, yes, you sit in front of it and think to yourself, yes, what do I write on it now, it's not all that easy and there are many approaches that can help a little bit and what we think is particularly effective is such a playful approach, we have developed a methodology that works with cards and the second advantage of this thing is that we can put the IoT focus here again very well. Because we have cards with services and things and interactions and can then generate combinations of ideas very quickly within this interplay. And the first step here is to get as much out of it as possible.

The next step is then to narrow it down again and say okay, now we have a hundred ideas, which of them is the most plausible for our how might we question or for our target group. Where we say okay, that's where the most value lies and here too we can then look at okay, where is the business value of the whole thing? And to do this, it's important to take another look together to see what it looks like in detail. And that's where we work with storytelling elements, which is simply because otherwise you quickly get into a mode where you say, okay, we still need this feature and that feature and that feature, but we don't want to go there, we don't want to build one feature after another, we want to create a solution that offers added value. And that's where this storyboard approach really helps. The whole thing is only good as long as it stands up to certain tests. That's why perhaps not the most important step, but one of the most important steps, is to challenge the whole thing and, above all, to take it to another level.

And on a level where this can be experienced. That's why we create prototypes at the end of the second day. Prototype is a word that says very much and very little, but we're talking about things that make the ideas tangible again. It can be something very plastic, it can be made of paper or Lego or whatever, or it can also be a conversation situation, which of course depends entirely on what kind of idea it is and how you can make it tangible. And we can run the first tests with these prototypes and incorporate feedback from these tests. And that is a very essential point, because we want to go into detail as quickly as possible, especially in this phase of brainstorming and in a phase where perhaps not everything has been finalized yet. We want to get something up and running as quickly as possible in order to gain experience. And at the beginning, within this two-day format, it may not necessarily be directly with the target group we are aiming for. Instead, it's among the participants, who naturally take their knowledge about the target group with them, who have experience. Be it from sales, support or development. It's an initial feedback loop, and that's the important thing, that you get straight into this mode. Okay, we challenge that regularly. And that gives you a great basis for the next steps, for example moving towards a proof of concept, but Ricardo will tell us more about that now.

Ricardo Dunkel: Exactly, thank you very much. So the workshop is ultimately the core that we would like to briefly present here, which we have briefly explained. Where we have created a concept with various tools and which is also typically accompanied by various departments from the diva-e side. So in most cases it is the IoX department, which is now represented here by Johannes and a person from the IoT Lab, so that you can simply take this technical background with you and incorporate it into the results produced. Overall, however, everyone will surely understand that we can't save the world in two days. This means that we typically start with the client expressing an interest, communicating certain ideas to us in an elevator pitch or simply hearing about them and receiving inquiries, then we first try to narrow things down a bit, get to know the people and then, depending on time, ideas and characteristics, start preparing. That means conducting interviews with the potential participants in the workshop so that we can narrow down the target group better. I would say that you can better grasp the thoughts that are in your head so that you can prepare the workshop. So there is also the possibility that we can adapt our existing materials, such as the gameplay we have developed, specifically to the customer's needs. The criteria and the personas can be nudged in the right direction so that the workshop can be carried out effectively.

At the end of the workshop, there is of course an evaluation afterwards, where the results are processed and certain topics that are relevant for implementation are looked at in more detail. For example, the network and protocol level, or very high-level cloud systems, or URI, URX, so there is a very wide range of things that can come up. This then puts us in a position to bring in experts from other departments and what we would like to achieve is a joint kick-off as a proof of concept that moves us in the direction of implementation. Here, of course, it takes longer than two days in total; experience has shown that this is a period of one to two months, depending on availability and the pressure that exists. So that with the idea and the input that comes from the workshop, you then move towards the rough concept of the IoT use case. Because at the end of the day, we are the experts in various areas who can simply provide technological or procedural support in this case, but the customer is the one who has the domain knowledge. Of course, we have acquired domain knowledge in various areas over the years, but we do not presume to know what the market looks like better than the customer who serves this market with their products or services. And that's why it's very important to us that this is also seen as a joint effort in order to ultimately launch a proof of concept and then determine, okay, what scope it should have.

Should it then perhaps be further developed as a minimal viable product, as it is so nicely abbreviated to MVP, so that you really have something tangible at the end. And the nice thing about this approach is that the focus is always on short iterations. Yes, this means that the timeline you see here now is never longer than two months, because it no longer makes sense at the end. The ideas at the beginning are then simply gone and if you plan too long, there is simply a much higher risk that you will miss the actual target or ultimately not hit the market, which is why this is a rough timeframe of one to two months. It ends when you have a rough concept for a use case, you know what the individual building blocks look like, what the requirements are in terms of technology, people and budget, and then at the end you can say that this is a result that you can push ahead with. And at the end, of course, it is always very important for us to hold a retrospective with the various participants that have emerged over the timeline, so that we can simply focus on this open culture of discussion and, above all, the common goal, because that is ultimately the basis for the next steps, namely the implementation of the project itself.

And what we would like to say here in conclusion is that ideas should simply be allowed and encouraged within the company. Sometimes there are abstruse ideas or ideas that sound strange at first. It is always important to us that these ideas are not discarded. People have these ideas based on their social or work-related backgrounds and experiences, and we consider all of this to be very valuable. And if you look at the whole thing together across departments or across companies, so to speak, and everyone can contribute, then you have a great basis, because then everyone is pulling in the same direction. Because then this issue of the department and everyone having their own goals is no longer so prominent, we won't be able to eliminate it completely, but we can create a good basis for moving a little further away from it.

In the end, a company always has a clear goal and all employees should work together to achieve this goal. We all know that it is difficult in practice, especially when companies become very large. And that's why it's important for us to say that it's never one department alone that makes a customer or a product or a service successful, but ultimately the entire company. And that's simply what we want to convey and the warning, I don't want to put it like that now, is that just because something is technically feasible doesn't mean you always have to implement it straight away. We have seen over the years that technical solutions can be built very beautifully, very cleanly and in a highly sophisticated way.

In the end, the question is always how can I sell the whole thing and for whom does it create added value. For example, without naming names, large machine manufacturers say that they are developing SMART services, and that is part of it today. Industry 4.0 is the big buzzword and I can then simply see machines or car details or production details and then in the second step or third step realize that yes, the customer doesn't pay for it because he expects it as part of the product he has bought. They don't see it as an extra service that can be sold on a high budget, but they have bought the machine, for example, and simply expect to be provided with these SMART services, so to speak. These are things that very quickly lead to the fact that you may not be able to fulfill the RoI calculation that you made at the beginning. And that's why, to close the circle, it's also very important to include these personas, to say who is our target market, what are the products we actually sell there or what do we want to improve. And we have gained a lot of experience in this area and would like to offer to share it and turn it into a structured process. So that a successful project is created in the end. And that brings us to the end of the presentation of the webinar and we would now like to start the open Q&A session.

Q&A

Angela Meyer: Exactly, so thank you Johannes and Ricardo for your knowledge of the IoT Ideation workshops. Exactly, before we now also start the Q and A session, we have prepared short surveys for the audience, four short surveys in total. I would show them for a short moment and you can then vote and at the end Johannes and Ricardo would briefly comment on these results and we will now start with the first question.

Ricardo Dunkel: We deliberately decided not to make the questions too technical here, as we don't want to bore the individual people with (RAMI sections) or other things due to the diverse group of participants. And these are points in the short survey that we are simply interested in, what it looks like in your company, in your environment, in order to get a better picture.

Angela Meyer: Exactly. And as you can see now, yes. You are already very diligent and use design thinking and design sprints.

Ricardo Dunkel: Okay, then we can leave out the long-prepared textual form here. So of course we are very pleased, from experience we simply expected different results and are just very happy that this is a topic that is becoming more and more widespread, which we also think is very worthwhile.

Johannes Winter: Yes, I can only agree with that.

Ricardo Dunkel: Then we can cut that short.

Angela Meyer: Yes. Then we come to the second question.

Ricardo Dunkel: Exactly, PoC is the proof of concept, and the MVP is the minimum viable product. I'll say it again briefly so that perhaps anyone who doesn't know it yet has an idea. Johannes Winter: I already have an idea of what will come out of it.

Angela Meyer: Let's take a look at it then.

Ricardo Dunkel: Based on the first answer, I expect exactly that, very nice. That makes us very optimistic, yes.

Angela Meyer: Let's move on to the third question.

Ricardo Dunkel: Yes, that's a very interesting question. Johannes Winter: Yes, especially in view of the fact that there are often still such unconscious silos, knowledge silos, we don't even take ourselves out of them, that certainly happens to us from time to time, that we then realize oops, we are now at a point where we have to make an effort again. And I can see that you've all understood this and are applying it, which I think is great.

Ricardo Dunkel: That's definitely great and something we can take away from the last few years. It's always helpful to do this on an ongoing basis, we've also supported projects with this methodology where you have the understanding that you only have to do it once with this workshop and then the departments don't talk to each other anymore. This is of course counterproductive, but it's great to see that we're not alone in this opinion.

Angela Meyer: That's right, and now we come to the last short survey for you.

Ricardo Dunkel: No, that's not a trick question, it's really serious.

Angela Meyer: So, let's take a look at the results here too.

Johannes Winter: I just thought for a moment: oops.

Angela Meyer: And everyone uses agile methods.

Ricardo Dunkel: Very nice, definitely.

Johannes Winter: I kind of expected that to be at the top, I was thinking now what, I'm surprised now that everyone plans their projects all the way through before they start, because that's always been at the top until now.

Ricardo Dunkel: So from our side, we can only confirm that this is the only valid thing you have. And we would also like to warn against saying okay, you have a waterfall model at the beginning that lasts for two years and now we cut it into three-week sprints and then we are agile. We've had that experience too. So yes, very nice in any case and we can only encourage the participants to do it in short iterations. For us, that's the only right way to make products and services successful.

Angela Meyer: Exactly. And now we motivate the participants here to ask you questions, we still have time, feel free to ask Ricardo and Johannes. And I would now take the first questions that have come in in the meantime and I would start here with the question:

Ricardo Dunkel: Yes, well, we don't know every company and every department, so companies are structured very differently. What we would definitely recommend is not just to include technology-driven departments. In our experience, we have the best results when we have someone from all possible areas that arise in the company in the first round or at least in the interview section where we first get to know each other. In concrete terms, this means that we have a development department, which is sometimes called digitalization, which is sometimes called IT or something else, and then there are operations sales, system administrators or cloud engineers, whatever you call them. But it's all very technically driven, so we clearly recommend including people from sales, from the sales area, from the marketing area, so that you really have as many perspectives as possible. And based on the number of participants, which we now like to see roughly between six and ten people, i.e. from the customer side, you can then divide it up well, split it up between the departments.

Johannes Winter: Yes, so of course it's always incredibly helpful if you primarily approach departments that actually have contact with the relevant group of people. For example, if I think of a support department that has a lot of customer contact but ultimately only writes tickets, then it is of course very interesting to do something like this with them in order to really bring people together who might not otherwise speak to each other and to gain these insights.

Angela Meyer: That's right. And the participant would also like to know based on that:

Ricardo Dunkel: Well, that's a good question and also a very difficult one, so it's very political again. It may have come across as a bit of a soundbite, at least in my hope that we would like to use this approach and design thinking here to simply initiate an early specification phase. Not quite replace, that would be the wrong word, but we have had the best experience of doing this before the actual specification phase. And that again depends very much on the company, who gives the money, who has the budget for it, and unfortunately that sometimes results in who is in the way. But what we don't recommend is to say that it's just purely technology-driven. We have the best experiences when it is relatively open at the beginning. So if the company says I want to implement something, I have a product, a new product, a new service, whatever, that I want to sell, that I want to bring to market or that I'm thinking about and have already set aside a budget for it, so to speak. Which department is in the way doesn't matter to us, especially in the initial phase. That's exactly what we try to teach the members beforehand, in the sense that it's not about excluding someone else or putting someone in the lead, but about approaching the idea together. And if we then have a good idea and everyone agrees on this idea, then we move towards the proof of concept and then, at the latest, a department is needed to take the lead. But that would be the case, I know that it is sometimes difficult to implement in reality, but our wishful thinking would be to first determine the lead of the department for the proof of concept.

Angela Meyer: Okay, here's another question.

Ricardo Dunkel: Yes, based on the survey we've just seen, I'll take that as a trick question and of course the only correct answer is an agile project approach, i.e. you simply can't do it with a classic Taylor model, waterfall model, you get feedback far too late. And that's why, as we all agree in the survey, the only correct approach is an agile approach, in whatever form. Whether you start small with Kanban and move towards Supergram, we are relatively flexible. We just want to make a clear case for using the agile process model.

Angela Meyer: Agile methods are clearly profitable and the right approach, yes. Now another participant would like to know,

Ricardo Dunkel: Yes, that's always a situation for us in which we, as external parties, when we've just joined the company and haven't known the customer for very long, are not always visible to us. On the one hand, we have the interview phase in the run-up, where you can usually already hear, let's say, for example, yes, the IT guys are always too slow, they always make everything complicated, or/and then you already know okay, something has happened, but that's not a problem for us, so we see that as potential and include it in the preparation and implementation of the workshop in such a way that you see it as potential. So if people don't look at each other in the workshop and don't talk to each other, then none of us are helped, and neither is the customer in the end. That's why we try to facilitate an open mind set, based on the preparation and the workshop format, so that these conflicts can be left out of the equation, at least for these two days.

Johannes Winter: I would even say that hopefully after such a joint workshop, where you work intensively on a goal that you have also created together and the many perspectives that flow into it, the many discussions, that then such conflicts can possibly be resolved or at least there is a better common understanding of each other. Because we've already said it in several places, it's still often the case that the way people talk to each other across departments, or often-, it's often not in such direct contact and I would now say, so it may sound a bit strange now because we're at IoT Ideation, but ultimately that's also one of the greatest added values of something like this, that perspectives come together that might not otherwise talk to each other.

Ricardo Dunkel: Exactly, just to finish off briefly, for us conflicts are simply different perspectives that have different objectives. If you think about accounting and development, the typical example, development always takes too long, always goes over budget, then these are simply different goals that each department pursues. And this is precisely about revealing these points of view and reducing this conflict to a factual level in order to find common goals and ultimately reach a consensus. And that's why it's so important, as we said at the beginning, that we want and need to start the whole thing together with as many departments as possible, so that in the end there is added value for everyone and everyone is on board.

Angela Meyer: Well summarized. And I would now like to take up another question, which is about this,

Johannes Winter: Of course, we are now working in the context of IoT and we have adapted this approach specifically to IoT and the needs of IoT. Especially with the approaches, with the map model that we have developed. But the approach is fundamentally based on the principles of design thinking and can ultimately be adapted to pretty much anything you can imagine. I think the only restriction I would make at this point is that it must be possible to think in a human-centered way. So there have to be people who are ultimately the addressees or the target group. Because that's the core of the whole thing. But I can't think of an example right now where this isn't the case. So be it haptic products or digital products, in the end someone should always use it or derive some value from it, or or or. In the end, there is always a person sitting in front of it, no matter what it is. So it's probably not a limitation at all.

Ricardo Dunkel: Exactly, there's no limitation, it's, so we've had good experience in real product development, in other words, where machines or features for machines play a role. Be it for the end customer or the maintenance technician or the employee who stands in front of it every day on shift or just the customers who ultimately simply look at information about product lines, factories or things via the dashboard. And we are not limited to this at all, but we would also like to encourage this process model to be transported into classic mechanical engineering as an example, which is where we now feel very comfortable. And that of course extends to our classic field, i.e. the DNA of diva-e, that we are of course cloud web-oriented, e-commerce-oriented, i.e. everything that comes via the edge device, via the store floor. And we feel very comfortable with this and have good experience that we can apply this equally to all areas.

Angela Meyer: That's right, and if there are no further questions, you are welcome to contact Ricardo afterwards and be specific about the areas in which you would like to use the IoT workshop. We will also make the recording of our webinar and the presentation available afterwards, so you can watch and listen to it all again at your leisure. Here is one last note about our webinars, which we organize on a weekly basis. Take a look at our diva-e.com website and register for further webinars. We look forward to your participation. And now, thank you Ricardo and Johannes for your time and for your insights into how an IoT Ideation Workshop should ideally run. Have a great afternoon and see you soon.

Ricardo Dunkel: Thank you very much, you too. See you soon.

Johannes Winter: Thank you very much. Bye.

Angela Meyer: Bye.

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